Hi all,
When I posted my remen/meridian article last year, most of the discussion was about the length of the remen and the cubit and the associated Greek and Roman measures, which I discussed in my article, but the main reason I wrote the article concerned the measures of Egypt given by Herodotus and Eratosthenes and ancient Egyptians, so I thought I would post a recap:
Around 450 bc, during the Persian occupation of Egypt, Herodotus 2.9 gave 132 schoinos for the total length of Egypt from Elephantine to the sea, and Herodotus 2.7 gave 25 schoinos from Heliopolis to the sea.
Around 220 bc, during the Greek occupation of Egypt, Eratosthenes gave 5000 stadia for the meridian (NS) distance from Alexandria to Syene, and according to Strabo 17:1:2 he gave 5300 stadia for the NS distance from Syene to the sea, meaning the NS distance from Alexandria to the sea was 300 stadia. Syene is right next to and at the same latitude as Elephantine.
Since Alexandria is on the sea, the only and obvious conclusion is that Eratosthenes was talking about the NS distance from Alexandria to the northern limit of Egypt. Given a stadia of 300 royal cubits, the NS distance from Alexandria to Syene is 5000 stadia, and the NS distance from Alexandria to the northern limit of Egypt is 300 stadia.
Eratosthenes' first hand writings have been lost. According to Pliny 12:30, the stadia employed by Eratosthenes was 1/40 of a schoinos.
5300/40 = 132.5, which rounds off to 132, which is the number of schoinos in the total length of Egypt, according to Herodotus. In other words, the 132 schoinos given by Herodotus, given a schoinos of 12,000 royal cubits, or 300 royal cubits x 40, is also correct.
In the late 1800's, Lepsius translated a geographical inscription from Edfu that gave 106 itr for the total length of Egypt. This inscription was carved during the Ptolemaic period, but is believed to be a copy of much older texts.
Petrie found a partially charred Ptolemaic papyrus at Tanis that said it was a copy of an Old Kingdom inscription, that gave 106 itr for the total length of Egypt and also gave a length of 20 itr.
In 1906, Borchardt translated three inscribed Middle Kingdom cubit rods that he found at Karnak that gave 106 itr for the total length of Egypt from Elephantine to the sea, divided at Pi-Hapy (the division point of upper Egypt and lower Egypt), giving 86 itr from Elephantine to Pi-Hapy, and giving 20 itr from Pi-Hapy to the northern limit of Egypt. The translation of 'northern limit of Egypt' was given by Borchardt and Gardiner and Lacau.
In the 1930's, modern restoration of the third pylon at the temple of Amun at Karnak uncovered inscribed blocks from the White Chapel that had been dismantled and used as core blocks for the Amun temple. These blocks were recovered and restored and also contained geographical inscriptions giving 106 itr as the total length of Egypt, divided at Pi-Hapy for 86 itr for upper Egypt and 20 itr for lower Egypt.
5300 stadia, divided by 50, equals 106 itr, which are the respective lengths given by Eratosthenes and the ancient Egyptian inscriptions, giving a stade of 300 royal cubits x 50 = 15,000 royal cubits for the itr.
The distance of 25 schoinos given by Herodotus from Heliopolis to the northern limit, times 12,000 royal cubits per schoinos, divided by 15000 royal cubits per itr, equals the 20 itr given in the ancient inscriptions for the NS distance from Pi-Hapy to the northern limit.
Given 15,000 royal cubits for the itr, the NS distance from Elephantine to the apex of the delta is 86 itr, and the distance from the apex to the northern limit is 20 itr, the total distance being 106 itr.
As I discuss in my article, I believe the 15,000 cubit itr had it's origins in the long distance remen measure of 15,000 remen, or 300,000 digits, which is equal to three nautical miles, or three minutes of latitude, or one nautical league.
In the case of the Greek schoinos of 12,000 Greek cubits, the Greek orguia was 100 digits, or six feet, or four cubits. The Greek stade of 400 Greek cubits, or 10,000 digits, times 30, (or a Greek stade of 300 Greek cubits x 40) equals 12000 Greek cubits, or one Greek schoinos, or 300,000 digits, or three nautical miles or three minutes of latitude, or one nautical league. However, the royal cubit is longer than the Greek cubit and accordingly the 'Egyptian schoinos' of 12000 royal cubits is longer than the Greek schoinos of 12000 Greek cubits.
Herodotus conflates what he calls the 'Egyptian schoinos' back and forth with Greek feet and Greek cubits and fathoms and furlongs, and even more questionably says that the Egyptian schoinos contains 60 furlongs (Greek stades) and is twice the length of the Persian schoinos of 30 stades. All of this is wrong and Sethe and Hultsch both say that after comparing a number of measures given by Herodotus in 'Egyptian schoinos' for fairly short distances between known locations that it is obvious that the Egyptian schoinos of Herodotus could only be 30 to 40 stades at most. Herodotus 2.18 also said that the Oracle of Ammon beared witness to the accuracy of his measures of Egypt, and given an Egyptian schoinos of 12000 royal cubits, the Oracle did not bear false witness. Petrie found a long Ptolemaic road in the Fayum that had schoinos markers on it that he surveyed and found the length of the Ptolemaic schoinos was 12000 royal cubits.
Prior to the discovery of the cubit rods, the location of Pi-Hapy was not considered to be certain, or important. Ancient inscriptions from the Book of the Dead and the pyramid texts, and ancient Greek and Roman texts, suggest that it was in Heliopolis, or adjacent to Heliopolis, or at the apex of the Delta, or the dividing line between the upper Nile and the lower Nile, which is also quite close to, and sometimes considered to be, Heliopolis. Since the discovery of the cubit rods there has been an academic effort to push Pi-Hapy further and further south, even as far as Memphis, which I suspect is an effort to discredit the measures from the cubit rods as accurate meridian measures. The boundaries of the area of the Dodekaschoinos have also been altered completely beyond recognition from what Herodotus said, which I also suspect is an effort to assign a value for the schoinos of Herodotus that does not produce an accurate meridian measure of Egypt. I have added a table of contents to my remen/meridian article, including sections on both of these efforts.
There are a number of pictures and maps and diagrams in my article that hopefully illuminate my views about these ancient measures of Egypt:
[home.hiwaay.net]
If all goes well I am staying home for the holidays. Have a Merry Christmas and a safe and Happy New Year.
Jim A
When I posted my remen/meridian article last year, most of the discussion was about the length of the remen and the cubit and the associated Greek and Roman measures, which I discussed in my article, but the main reason I wrote the article concerned the measures of Egypt given by Herodotus and Eratosthenes and ancient Egyptians, so I thought I would post a recap:
Around 450 bc, during the Persian occupation of Egypt, Herodotus 2.9 gave 132 schoinos for the total length of Egypt from Elephantine to the sea, and Herodotus 2.7 gave 25 schoinos from Heliopolis to the sea.
Around 220 bc, during the Greek occupation of Egypt, Eratosthenes gave 5000 stadia for the meridian (NS) distance from Alexandria to Syene, and according to Strabo 17:1:2 he gave 5300 stadia for the NS distance from Syene to the sea, meaning the NS distance from Alexandria to the sea was 300 stadia. Syene is right next to and at the same latitude as Elephantine.
Since Alexandria is on the sea, the only and obvious conclusion is that Eratosthenes was talking about the NS distance from Alexandria to the northern limit of Egypt. Given a stadia of 300 royal cubits, the NS distance from Alexandria to Syene is 5000 stadia, and the NS distance from Alexandria to the northern limit of Egypt is 300 stadia.
Eratosthenes' first hand writings have been lost. According to Pliny 12:30, the stadia employed by Eratosthenes was 1/40 of a schoinos.
5300/40 = 132.5, which rounds off to 132, which is the number of schoinos in the total length of Egypt, according to Herodotus. In other words, the 132 schoinos given by Herodotus, given a schoinos of 12,000 royal cubits, or 300 royal cubits x 40, is also correct.
In the late 1800's, Lepsius translated a geographical inscription from Edfu that gave 106 itr for the total length of Egypt. This inscription was carved during the Ptolemaic period, but is believed to be a copy of much older texts.
Petrie found a partially charred Ptolemaic papyrus at Tanis that said it was a copy of an Old Kingdom inscription, that gave 106 itr for the total length of Egypt and also gave a length of 20 itr.
In 1906, Borchardt translated three inscribed Middle Kingdom cubit rods that he found at Karnak that gave 106 itr for the total length of Egypt from Elephantine to the sea, divided at Pi-Hapy (the division point of upper Egypt and lower Egypt), giving 86 itr from Elephantine to Pi-Hapy, and giving 20 itr from Pi-Hapy to the northern limit of Egypt. The translation of 'northern limit of Egypt' was given by Borchardt and Gardiner and Lacau.
In the 1930's, modern restoration of the third pylon at the temple of Amun at Karnak uncovered inscribed blocks from the White Chapel that had been dismantled and used as core blocks for the Amun temple. These blocks were recovered and restored and also contained geographical inscriptions giving 106 itr as the total length of Egypt, divided at Pi-Hapy for 86 itr for upper Egypt and 20 itr for lower Egypt.
5300 stadia, divided by 50, equals 106 itr, which are the respective lengths given by Eratosthenes and the ancient Egyptian inscriptions, giving a stade of 300 royal cubits x 50 = 15,000 royal cubits for the itr.
The distance of 25 schoinos given by Herodotus from Heliopolis to the northern limit, times 12,000 royal cubits per schoinos, divided by 15000 royal cubits per itr, equals the 20 itr given in the ancient inscriptions for the NS distance from Pi-Hapy to the northern limit.
Given 15,000 royal cubits for the itr, the NS distance from Elephantine to the apex of the delta is 86 itr, and the distance from the apex to the northern limit is 20 itr, the total distance being 106 itr.
As I discuss in my article, I believe the 15,000 cubit itr had it's origins in the long distance remen measure of 15,000 remen, or 300,000 digits, which is equal to three nautical miles, or three minutes of latitude, or one nautical league.
In the case of the Greek schoinos of 12,000 Greek cubits, the Greek orguia was 100 digits, or six feet, or four cubits. The Greek stade of 400 Greek cubits, or 10,000 digits, times 30, (or a Greek stade of 300 Greek cubits x 40) equals 12000 Greek cubits, or one Greek schoinos, or 300,000 digits, or three nautical miles or three minutes of latitude, or one nautical league. However, the royal cubit is longer than the Greek cubit and accordingly the 'Egyptian schoinos' of 12000 royal cubits is longer than the Greek schoinos of 12000 Greek cubits.
Herodotus conflates what he calls the 'Egyptian schoinos' back and forth with Greek feet and Greek cubits and fathoms and furlongs, and even more questionably says that the Egyptian schoinos contains 60 furlongs (Greek stades) and is twice the length of the Persian schoinos of 30 stades. All of this is wrong and Sethe and Hultsch both say that after comparing a number of measures given by Herodotus in 'Egyptian schoinos' for fairly short distances between known locations that it is obvious that the Egyptian schoinos of Herodotus could only be 30 to 40 stades at most. Herodotus 2.18 also said that the Oracle of Ammon beared witness to the accuracy of his measures of Egypt, and given an Egyptian schoinos of 12000 royal cubits, the Oracle did not bear false witness. Petrie found a long Ptolemaic road in the Fayum that had schoinos markers on it that he surveyed and found the length of the Ptolemaic schoinos was 12000 royal cubits.
Prior to the discovery of the cubit rods, the location of Pi-Hapy was not considered to be certain, or important. Ancient inscriptions from the Book of the Dead and the pyramid texts, and ancient Greek and Roman texts, suggest that it was in Heliopolis, or adjacent to Heliopolis, or at the apex of the Delta, or the dividing line between the upper Nile and the lower Nile, which is also quite close to, and sometimes considered to be, Heliopolis. Since the discovery of the cubit rods there has been an academic effort to push Pi-Hapy further and further south, even as far as Memphis, which I suspect is an effort to discredit the measures from the cubit rods as accurate meridian measures. The boundaries of the area of the Dodekaschoinos have also been altered completely beyond recognition from what Herodotus said, which I also suspect is an effort to assign a value for the schoinos of Herodotus that does not produce an accurate meridian measure of Egypt. I have added a table of contents to my remen/meridian article, including sections on both of these efforts.
There are a number of pictures and maps and diagrams in my article that hopefully illuminate my views about these ancient measures of Egypt:
[home.hiwaay.net]
If all goes well I am staying home for the holidays. Have a Merry Christmas and a safe and Happy New Year.
Jim A